From: "Terry Steichen" To: "George C. Hawkins" Subject: Re[2]: FYI - No Charge for IDB Distribution Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:04:14 -0400 George, IMHO, Lutris is getting desperate but doesn't want to admit it. Nothing really wrong with that. Yes, Yancy and others tend to give self-serving responses and, when the questions are particularly discomforting, they either stonewall or worse, 'lose' the relevant (read: critical) messages. However, their existing open source Enhydra code is good quality and for that reason I've invested a significant amount of time becoming familiar with it. Since, as a result I have potentially useful knowledge, I don't mind sharing it with others that are trying to do what I've already done. My thought is that, rather than thinking of Lutris folks as 'con-men', think of them as a bunch of guys scrambling to put together an effective 'survival mode' operation. Naturally, given what's transpired (and BTW, this is *not* the first such incident - Lutris tried the same move with XMLC over a year ago and I bashed Yancy very hard on that), I take what they say with a grain of salt, and keep a local copy of the current source code. Regards, Terry PS: Hope the new job is working out well for you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George C. Hawkins" To: "Terry Steichen" Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 9:53 AM Subject: Re: FYI - No Charge for IDB Distribution Hi Terry, I had a look at your postings on enhydra.org, they're much more concise, cutting and to the point than my site. Your exchanges with Yancy were particularly interesting - I've got to admire your persistence given Yancy's responses (I loved his "All of these questions have been previously asked and responded to." posting). In the face of all this I'm surprised at your maintaining a positive engagement with Lutris/Enhydra. While their products maybe great they clearly seem to me to be con-men, obviously many people within Lutris/Enhydra did really believe in Open Source but it seems clear that Yancy, Keith and Paul are prepared to do anything now that the Open Source as business model has clearly failed. You don't appear to have gotten the reassurances you wanted (I couldn't find your e-mail below on the list archive - it seems highly unlikely that such e-mails have just been accidently omitted) on a number of questions and it seems even if someone like Keith does provide the community with reassurance on given issues that he, Yancy and Keith feel free to change the rules at a latter stage and ignore any commitments they've made before (or make the situation sufficiently unclear that you'd need a lawyer to determine your rights in a given situation). Given all this you are still prepared to go on using Lutris/Enhydra products and contributing to their development through your feedback, comments etc? Yours, George. PS as you might've seen on my site when Jonathan Marcotte asked Lutris about using InstantDB with his open source project just after the taking down of the instantdb.enhydra.org site he did not get anything similar to the response that Alfred Madl or you got rather he was told $695 was the current asking price. PPS sorry for taking so long to get back to you on your post - I just started a new job and I'm very busy at the moment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Steichen" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 2:34 AM Subject: FYI - No Charge for IDB Distribution > George, > > Just noticed your concerns re: InstantDB. This may be relevant. > > Regards, > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Steichen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:53 PM > Subject: Re: Enhydra: Lutris' J2EE Change - What are the Core Issues? > > > > Alfred, > > > > As you can see from the attachment, I received an identical message on > > 11/28/00 from Keith Bigelow, Lutris' Marketing VP. > > > > I think the horse has been released from the barn and I don't see how they > > can legally or ethically pretend that hasn't already happened. > > > > Please stay in touch - I think this is going to get interesting and I want > > to keep touch with kindred spirits. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Terry > > > > PS: My message hasn't yet been posted on the board, but I gather it has > been > > circulated to list members? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Madl Alfred" > > To: "'Terry Steichen '" > > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:46 PM > > Subject: AW: Enhydra: Lutris' J2EE Change - What are the Core Issues? > > > > > > I would be especially interested in the InstantDB question ! Some months > > ago Lutris ensured to us that InstantDB WILL go open source and we would > > have to pay NO license fees for it... > > > > The following lines are an original email from Lutris (16th January 2001) > > from Greg Schwarzer: > > > > BEGIN OF MAIL TEXT > > > > Hi Alfred - hope all is well with you! > > > > Below I will attach our standard blurb about InstantDB. It actually is > > under the EPL open source license now, it is just that we haven't released > > the source code yet. I know they are preparing to do so. Let me know if > > the below doesn't answer all of your questions. > > > > --Greg > > > > ================ > > You may use InstantDB in your commercial software applications free of > > charge. You do not need to buy a license to use InstantDB. You may > > distribute InstantDB with your commercial software provided that you're in > > compliance with sections 3.1-3.5 of the Enhydra Public License. Since the > > source code for InstantDB is not yet available, you are not required to > > return your extensions to the community. Certainly, Lutris would love for > > you to purchase the certified version of the software for this application, > > as we can assure its quality, and you can do this by purchasing Lutris > > Enhydra Professional at www.lutris.com. Should you need the source code to > > InstantDB, you may purchase it from Lutris. Nortel, IBM, and other firms > > have also licensed the code for their hardware/software solutions. > > > > We require that you simply cite your use of InstantDB either within your > > printed documentation or the Readme.txt file for the software, and include > > mention that: > > > > a> Lutris Technologies, Inc. is the copyright holder. > > > > b> The software is freely available at http://instantdb.enhydra.org, and > > covered under the Enhydra Public License, accessible at > > http://www.enhydra.org/software/license/epl.html > > > > c> A pointer to your inclusion of the EPL.txt/EPL.html file in your online > > distribution or within your printed documentation. > > > > > > > > --Greg > > > > END OF MAIL TEXT > > > > So at least we (Together Teamlösungen) are free of license fees for > > commercial usage...so if you are interested in a license, just send me a > > postcard :-) > > > > Any comments from Lutris on that ? > > > > Alfred Madl