From: "Terry Steichen" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:53 PM Subject: Re: Enhydra: Lutris' J2EE Change - What are the Core Issues? Alfred, As you can see from the attachment, I received an identical message on 11/28/00 from Keith Bigelow, Lutris' Marketing VP. I think the horse has been released from the barn and I don't see how they can legally or ethically pretend that hasn't already happened. Please stay in touch - I think this is going to get interesting and I want to keep touch with kindred spirits. Best regards, Terry PS: My message hasn't yet been posted on the board, but I gather it has been circulated to list members? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Madl Alfred" To: "'Terry Steichen '" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: AW: Enhydra: Lutris' J2EE Change - What are the Core Issues? I would be especially interested in the InstantDB question ! Some months ago Lutris ensured to us that InstantDB WILL go open source and we would have to pay NO license fees for it... The following lines are an original email from Lutris (16th January 2001) from Greg Schwarzer: BEGIN OF MAIL TEXT Hi Alfred - hope all is well with you! Below I will attach our standard blurb about InstantDB. It actually is under the EPL open source license now, it is just that we haven't released the source code yet. I know they are preparing to do so. Let me know if the below doesn't answer all of your questions. --Greg ================ You may use InstantDB in your commercial software applications free of charge. You do not need to buy a license to use InstantDB. You may distribute InstantDB with your commercial software provided that you're in compliance with sections 3.1-3.5 of the Enhydra Public License. Since the source code for InstantDB is not yet available, you are not required to return your extensions to the community. Certainly, Lutris would love for you to purchase the certified version of the software for this application, as we can assure its quality, and you can do this by purchasing Lutris Enhydra Professional at www.lutris.com. Should you need the source code to InstantDB, you may purchase it from Lutris. Nortel, IBM, and other firms have also licensed the code for their hardware/software solutions. We require that you simply cite your use of InstantDB either within your printed documentation or the Readme.txt file for the software, and include mention that: a> Lutris Technologies, Inc. is the copyright holder. b> The software is freely available at http://instantdb.enhydra.org, and covered under the Enhydra Public License, accessible at http://www.enhydra.org/software/license/epl.html c> A pointer to your inclusion of the EPL.txt/EPL.html file in your online distribution or within your printed documentation. --Greg END OF MAIL TEXT So at least we (Together Teamlösungen) are free of license fees for commercial usage...so if you are interested in a license, just send me a postcard :-) Any comments from Lutris on that ? Alfred Madl ------------------------------[ATTACHMENT]------------------------------ Reply-To: From: Keith Bigelow To: Terry Steichen Cc: Paul Morgan , Greg Schwarzer , , Subject: RE: InstantDB's Licensing and Open Source Status Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:05:03 -0800 Today, if you sent me this email I'd answer with the following: You may use InstantDB in your commercial software applications free of charge. You do not need to buy a license to use InstantDB. You may distribute InstantDB with your commercial software provided that you're in compliance with sections 3.1-3.5 of the Enhydra Public License. Since the source code for InstantDB is not yet available, you are not required to return your extensions to the community. Certainly, Lutris would love for you to purchase the certified version of the software for this application, as we can assure its quality, and you can do this by purchasing Lutris Enhydra Professional at www.lutris.com. We would ask that you simply cite your use of InstantDB either within your printed documentation or the Readme.txt file for the software, and include mention that: a> Lutris Technologies, Inc. is the copyright holder. b> The software is freely available at http://instantdb.enhydra.org, and covered under the Enhydra Public License, accessible at http://www.enhydra.org/software/license/epl.html c> A pointer to your inclusion of the EPL.txt/EPL.html file in your online distribution or within your printed documentation. Please review the exact terms in the license. The license terms are VERY EASY to comply with, and are the only restriction on your use of the software. best regards, Keith Bigelow Lutris -----Original Message----- From: Terry Steichen [mailto:terry@net-frame.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 8:54 AM To: keith.bigelow@lutris.com Cc: Paul Morgan (E-mail); Greg Schwarzer (E-mail); peter.hearty@lutris.com; instantDB@enhydra.org Subject: Re: InstantDB's Licensing and Open Source Status Keith, Thanks for the detailed reply. Good answers all. One more question: What do I have to do if I want to distribute InstantDB today with a product I create (opensource, freeware or commercial)? Regards, Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Bigelow" To: ; ; Cc: "Paul Morgan (E-mail)" ; "Greg Schwarzer (E-mail)" Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:34 AM > Terry, > > Thanks for the post. If I know Peter, he'd probably prefer that I answer > marketing questions and that he get to answer engineering ones... :) > > So, you post asks 3 questions: > > a> Why is the licensing vague on IDB on instantdb.enhydra.org? > b> What's up with releasing the source? > c> You planning in reindeer games with the licensing?? > > The short answer to "A" is "We've been really busy and a little sloppy." > When we acquired ICS/IDB, we were unclear on how we'd license it. Many > internally wanted it free-ware, and to sell the source. Others wanted an > Enhydra Public License applied to the code. During this indecision, the web > site said "ask us". For what it's worth, I now receive upwards of 5 emails > a day from companies planning to redistribute the software as part of a > solution they've created. And, with company like IBM Websphere and Nortel > doing this, it's not surprising that people are jumping on board. We will > fix "A" probably around the time that we release source to IDB. Right now, > we are so heads down on Enhydra Enterprise, which utilizes IDB at its core, > that we simply haven't been spending a lot of time updating the site. > > The short answer to "B" is "We've been rearchitecting and perfecting IDB as > a service for use within Enhydra/Enhydra Enterprise, and until that work is > complete we're unlikely to release source." That stated, I'm hoping to see > us accomplish this goal and release source to IDB in Q1/2001, which is when > I expect to see Enhydra Enterprise in bulletproof form on Enhydra.org as > well. I should note, that while we're doing this work, it in no way > precludes your use of IDB with Websphere or any other application server / > development suite. So, we're making progress, but we're not there yet. > > The short answer to "C" is "No." The long answer to "C" is "No, no reindeer > games. I expect IDB source to be covered by the EPL." The licensing of > XMLC was not about playing games, but about trying to ensure the code didn't > fork. With EPL's current form, we're pretty certain that is unlikely to > happen. > > I haven't 'vetted' any of these responses with our exec staff, so I'm not > going to swear that the dates are perfect or anything, but this is the > intent that I come to work with every day. > > best regards, > Keith > > Keith Bigelow > Director of Product Mgmt > Lutris Technologies http://www.lutris.com > Sponsors of Enhydra http://www.enhydra.org > 831.460-7408 > keith.bigelow@lutris.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Steichen > > To: Peter Hearty > Cc: instantDB@enhydra.org > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 9:28 AM > Subject: InstantDB: InstantDB's Licensing and Open Source Status > Hi Peter, > My curiosity is piqued on two points. The first pertains to InstantDB > licnesing. You've made it very clear in a coupleof recent e-mails that > anyone has the right to use and even redistribute InstantDB, as long as that > includes an acknowledgement of Lutris' ownership (and other small details). > However, on the web site, the official Lutris statement is "check with us > for licensing details". Why doesn't Lustris just update the website to be > consistent with your rather clear and unambiguous licensing explanation? > The second part of my curiosity pertains to open-source plans. Lutris (and > you) have stated that this is planned. Yet there are a number of folks who > have asked for more details and - curiously - their requests remains > unanswered (which is rather strange for this list). Why is that (or better, > what are Lutris' plans in this regard)? > Perhaps I'm a bit jaded by my memory of Lutris' strange initial effort to > shift XMLC away from open-source and into a proprietary status. For those > who were 'around' at that time, this created quite a furor, till Lutris > eventually backed off. I don't imagine anything like that is afoot, but a > little clarification would be most welcome. > Regards, > Terry Steichen